How Shopify Support Drives Merchant Growth with Deep Customer Understanding

Meredith Metsker: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Beyond the Queue. Today, I am very excited to welcome David Kohl. He's the director of support at Shopify. David, thank you so much for joining me today.

David Kohl: My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.

Meredith Metsker: So you have had a very impressive career in customer support. You've worked in the field for over 25 years, leading teams at companies like Hewlett-Packard, Wolters Kluwer, Samsara, and now Shopify. And in that time, you and your teams have supported many different types of customers. So I'm guessing in that time, you have learned a thing or two about how to identify those different types of customers, figure out what they need, and then using that understanding to adjust the kind of service you deliver, and then probably also how you motivate and measure your team's performance. So let's talk about that.

David Kohl: Okay, great.

Meredith Metsker: To give us a little bit more context, can you walk me through your support career and then tell me a little bit about the customers you served in each role and then how they were different from each other?

David Kohl: Yeah, sure. Glad to. Yeah. As you said, a lot of varied roles, all of them pretty much focused on building and transforming support teams. They have been mostly in support. I did spend some time in sales and customer success, but we'll focus on the support roles because that's the bookends of my career and where I've spent most of my time. So the early part, as you mentioned in HP, that was in the enterprise space. Enterprise software as well as hardware infrastructure and cloud operations.

All of the teams that I led had a heavy technical support emphasis. And that's because the customers were what you would expect from large enterprise customers. They themselves very technical, high expectations, very self-sufficient. And I will say, I guess that's what I thought all customers were like until some of the other roles, as you mentioned.

After that, I led a transformation of support for a tax and accounting software business, much different. The customers were individual tax professionals. They were more finance mind and many of them not very technical at all. And that's an interesting point. What's different from enterprise is the money they spent on our software was their money.

It was their own money. Most recently, before Shopify, I helped build support business at a cloud operations startup, serviced the industrial and transportation space. The customers there were also not as technically minded, many of them. You're not talking to an IT department, you're talking to a business professional. It was a business where they were very heavily regulated.

So they needed products that worked all the time and quick answers to some potentially legal type situations. Now, Shopify director of support focused on our escalated support. The user is much different. The majority of our merchants are small business owners and entrepreneur. We certainly have more of the enterprise type of merchants who also have our online presence with us, but most of them are these aspirational merchants or small businesses that are using Shopify to build their brand and build generational wealth.

They come with a varied sort of backgrounds and experience levels, and frankly, a different type of passion for what they're doing as well. So that's the career and kind of the varied type of customers as you mentioned.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. A lot of variety there. But I suppose it helps keep it exciting too.

David Kohl: Yeah. Absolutely.

Meredith Metsker: As you started in each of these roles, or even after you've been there for a while, how do you go about understanding your different user types and then figuring out what they need?

David Kohl: Yeah, good question. We'll probably continue to drill down on that more, but I don't know that I fully appreciated that those differences exist early on. When we're talking about the enterprise accounts, as I said, I think we all have pretty valid assumptions. We understand the expectations and a lot of what we know of customer support operations is based on those type of needs. It wasn't until I started moving into some of these other roles that I started recognizing that and it became really important for me to really engage with customers.

All the roles we talked about, they're all B2B roles, but the 2B side, if you will, completely different for each one and some of them venture on the consumer side. So it has become very important to me, looking back, to understand that and designing the service and how you go about understanding that. It's not rocket science.

It's easy to figure out who your customers are, and the first one, it's just get to know them, if I can. A quick example, when I was at Wolters Kluwer with the tax and accounting software, I remember taking an escalated call from one of the clients and the gentleman was a 75-year-old man who just did tax prep in retirement. I think I had an hour and a half phone call with him talking about his issue, which was very [inaudible].

What it taught me right off the bat is that was the profile of a lot of our customers. I can't expect them to use self-service. I can't expect to tell them how to fix something and walk away. If that's the profile of our user, not technical, financial mind, and not technically savvy, I'm going to have to recognize that my agents are going to have to spend time walking them through, listening to stories about their grandchildren along the way, and take the time to get them fixed.

So get to know your customers through those type of ways. Listen to your team, would be the second thing because your team is the one talking to them every day. If you're pushing on, we need this KPI that they're saying, but this is what merchants are experiencing, you've got to listen to that. And then the other one, which I don't think we do enough of is just do the job alongside them for a bit.

I mean, you're not going to find me jump on the phone and take hot calls because I need to cherry pick a little bit. But I do like to, whether it's email type tickets or chats and things like that, get in every once in a while and do it to understand what customers are experiencing with our service.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. So when you started at Shopify, did you deploy some of these things that you just talked about? Or I guess, what were some of those first things?

David Kohl: Yeah. I had an incredible onboarding experience at Shopify to allow me to really get in and learn the product. So I went through the same onboarding that the support advisors go through and I got to get in and do the job with them. So that's been the best way for me to start understanding the merchant experience. One of the things I took from Samsara was this concept of core sampling. In my onboarding, that was a chance to do the core sampling.

Going periodically and grabbing tickets, those are core sampling. Just all the different ways that you can just test the user experience in our case, the merchant experience. And the first part of it, I talked about, I've done that by trying to connect with as many Shopify merchants as I can locally. I was visiting. My son is in Detroit a couple weeks ago and I found myself walking around and seeing small businesses and trying to check and see if they were Shopify stores or not. So I could go in and kind of test the experience and talk to them.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. So then as you begin to understand your customers by talking to them or working alongside your team, how do you go about adjusting the service you provide based on that understanding?

David Kohl: You've got to have an innovative and creative mind. I think a lot of that is just a mindset. Those of us who have grown up in support, we all hold on to some common principles. A lot of us probably listen to podcasts like this because we're part of a fraternity. We all think the same way and we have the same thing. There's some common principles about the processes you should run and how you measure those things and common KPIs.

I mean, we could all talk about SLAs, average handle time, things like that until we're blue in the face. But the truth is that one size doesn't fit all. When you're setting up a technical support organization versus a customer service organization, things are completely different. So you have to understand those needs and expectations of the customers.

And then there's not a cookbook that if it's this type of customer, you do this. If it's this type of customer, you do this. You have to think through what do my customer need and then be creative and adapt your service to match that. An example, popular wisdom would say we push self-service and electronic channels. That's what we all want to do because we know that's the best case scenario from the textbook view. But what if, as I describe to your customers are not technically savvy? What if they're likely to be mobile most of the time and not in an office?

That approach of self-service and do-it-yourself doesn't work. And you might have to accept that have a customer base that needs the traditional phone call, fast answer, and I'm going, I'm never going to push my mix to a different direction.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. Gotcha. So kind of switching more to the people management side of things, how does understanding the different types of customers affect how you both motivate and measure your teams?

David Kohl: Yeah. Similar to what I was saying there, I mentioned those set of norms in support on how we measure our teams, the things like average handle time, their interaction volume, or call volume, the customer satisfaction rate. But what if those goals conflict with the needs of the customers? Even though I haven't been here long, I'll use a Shopify example here. In most businesses, our goal of good customer support is the hope that customers will buy more of our product. We hope if we'll do a good job, they're going to come back and buy more from us.

It's a little different here at Shopify. We want our merchants to sell more of their own products and see their business grow because ultimately if their business grows, we're going to see the benefit of that as well. So if we want our support teams helping merchants find ways to grow their business, some of the norms and old adage, if we took that attrition approach of every advisor has to do this many interactions per day, they need to keep their handle time under 10 minutes, that would never happen. We'd be, get off quickly, get off quickly and leaving merchants to themselves.

And it's not that we don't care about those things, but we take more of a qualitative approach and we encourage our advisors to engage in conversations with merchants on the way they can improve their site, how the way they can promote their products all with the intent of expanding business. If I go back to my enterprise model and I try to apply that here, it just wouldn't work. We would have good KPIs from a support definition, but we wouldn't be meeting the needs of our merchants. We wouldn't be meeting the objectives of the business.

We still care about those things, as I said, but it's more from a staffing and productivity indicator rather than individual performance measures. And that's an example of adapting because I think we come in and we want to... If you ask me in an interview, what's your average handle time, I know where your mindset is? And you've got to be open-minded.

So secondarily, maybe a quicker example, if you're providing technical support to a user community that's not technically minded. Some of those support cultural norms that we have just aren't going to work. I had to be okay with, at Wolters Kluwer with the 70 year old tax prep gentleman. I had to be okay with longer handle times, because that's what it's going to take because you might have to be an educator as well as a problem solver.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I haven't thought through that angle of it before. On the non-metric side, I'm curious, is there any difference to how you manage your team, how you keep them engaged and enthusiastic? Is there any difference in how you do that between maybe the more technical minded customers like at HP versus Wolters Kluwer versus Shopify?

David Kohl: Yeah, that's a good question, too. I think it goes back to that statement I made about technical support and customer support. I think it's a huge realization a lot of leaders miss, and it can turn out to be an incredible de-motivator. What I mean is if what my merchant.... What my customers or my merchants... If what my customers need is someone highly technical because they themselves are highly technical and I recruit and hire those type of people and then treat it like it's a customer service call center where we're answering payment questions and things, it's an incredible de-motivator for the workforce.

So there's a balancing act. I mean, those KPI type things are important. But you've got to figure out that sweet spot to allow your teams to get invested with your customers, because ultimately that's why we all choose support because we like to help people and you've got to give them the chance. And if you've got measures and processes that are robbing your team of that chance to solve things for customers and make customers happy, you're robbing them of the intrinsic motivation that draws us all to support.

Meredith Metsker: Gotcha. I'm curious. Do you look for different things when you hire or build out these teams based on your understanding of the different type of customer?

David Kohl: All of the roles I've had have had varying degrees of being technical support. Okay? They've all had some sort of customer service mindset, but I think you have to figure out what is that technical skillset that's needed. And then everybody has to have some sort of... I guess what I look for is maybe they don't have customer support background, but they've got to be great communicators because that's what we do in support.

I love to hire early career entry level folks into support. It's how I started my job. I started on the phones and it's provided a great career because you never... Even sales won't be the same. You will never have as much customer interaction as you do when you're doing customer support. So you have to have that communication skills and empathy, but then you look at based on what you know about your customers, what's the type of technical skill you need to bring into that as well.

Do you need industry experience or do you just need customer service experience or do you need them to have some sort of technical development or networking? That type of thing.

Meredith Metsker: On that, the similar career development note, just looking through your career path, it seems like you really enjoy taking on different types of customers in each of your role. It seems like that's something you seek out. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that. Do you purposely look for very different customer types when you have looked at a new role?

David Kohl: It's a great question. I think what we're talking about is something I've begun to appreciate more later. I'm fortunate a lot of it, I think was just more opportunistic. I think what I looked for in a career is I've always viewed a career as more of a spiral staircase rather than the traditional ladder that you do. So I've been looking for opportunities that stretch me. Rather it's from an industry perspective or a responsibilities perspective.

I've had the great benefit of being able to do industry type changes. That's what's brought the customer change. So I think it's more about not me seeking different types of customers, seeking different industries and starting to recognize as I change that the customer base changes as well. So I need to think of take that into account.

Meredith Metsker: Yeah. It strikes me as a very interesting career.

David Kohl: It has been. It's been fun. Like I said, some of it has been opportunistic. Some of it has been deliberate. What I tell leaders, we may be branching into a different type of conversation, but I have had a lot of folks I've mentored asked me, how can I do what you did because I have, like I said, time in sales and things, but it's all boiled down to, I think one being the best at what you do because I tell them, if you're not putting everything, nobody's going to come to say, "Hey, you want to do this?"

The other aspect is just always have building a network. Not with the intent of getting a new job, but just a collaborative work environment. So it's brought about opportunities of folks I've worked with at other disciplines coming to me and saying, "Hey, would you like to try this?" Because I spent a lot of time at a lot of my career at HP and it was a lot of that happening within that company there. More recently it's deliberate searches on my own part that brought about too.

Meredith Metsker: I know we kind of touched on this earlier, but comparing HP where you spent a lot of your career to where you're at now at Shopify, I'm just curious. What are some of the biggest differences you've seen... I mean, just maybe in general, but also with the customers and figuring out how you lead those very different teams and serve those very different customers?

David Kohl: Yeah. Some of it is work culture difference, which comes to the interacting with the customer piece. It's not HP versus anybody else, but it's the concept of being most of my career in a very corporate fortune 50 type environment versus having been at a startup and Shopify now not a startup, but a rocket ship. Very different. The main thing is when you're in a very corporate structure like that, I say there's always... Whatever has to get done, it's somebody's job. So you have a huge support culture around you.

If I need this, I've got this person that can do this. To be honest, you don't have to get your hands dirty as much. So I didn't have nearly the level of customer interaction there that I've had other places just because there were folks who that was their job, whether it's escalations or customer survey, perhaps a [inaudible 00:21:54].

That's why I value the years I spent in sales so much because I lived every day in front of customers and that really built those muscles. So that now if I come to whether it's a startup or whether a rocket ship like Shopify, a lot of the... It's not as clear. It's more scrappy of everybody's in, everybody's working together. It's faster paced. And you do it yourself, which includes I'll call this customer.

I think one of the things that as support leaders that we lose is when we move into our first support job, our first leadership role, we maybe think we don't have to take those angry customers and things as much, and we should see it as a blessing. If somebody says, "Hey, this merchant wants to speak with a supervisor," happy to because that's when you're going to hear more about their business, because they're going to tell you the impact of the problem that they're having, not just the technical details of it.

Meredith Metsker: It goes back to that understanding the customer thing.

David Kohl: There you go.

Meredith Metsker: Bringing it full circle.

David Kohl: There you go.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. You mentioned that you took a little bit of a detour in your career and did some sales. How do you use some of what you learned in sales and that experience to, again, get to know your customers and then make sure you're offering great customer support for any type of customer?

David Kohl: There's a couple things that I think are in my bag now as I've come back to support many, many years ago. But as I came back to support, one, we live in a little bit of tension between support and sales. Support, we always think sales, oversold and sales we think, support is not supporting my customer. I think one of the things that I came back with was just an incredible empathy for both sides, which helps me in... It helps me in building service because it causes me to stretch perhaps the norms of what we would normally set up to try and support the sales teams and what they do.

So that's one of the things, but from the customer perspective, it is a weird thing maybe, but I think it shifted my customer, my view of customer interaction from a reactive, which is what we do in support to more of a proactive building relationships. A big part of what I did there was just relationship building with these clients to make sure they were satisfied, to make sure they were confident with our services, so they would buy more. It really broke me out of the sit and wait for the next fire to investing in the customer.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. And I imagine that you used some of that relationship building, the skills and experience to get to know your customers, like when you start in a new role and you need to start learning their story.

David Kohl: Yeah. It's harder now because I think in a couple of the roles, what I've done, and maybe this is part of what that time in sales did for me, one of the first things I would like to do is connect with the sales teams and try and find, can we go out, go out and visit customers, which doesn't happen as much anymore. Not just because of COVID, it's just perspective clients don't want a salesperson coming in as much anymore. But it's always being available to, "Hey, I'll get on that sales call with you and answer this support questions."

Whether it's sales or customer success or anybody else has a client that is upset with support for some reason, you err on the side of coming alongside rather than just giving them the information to go deal with this situation. So I guess that's the empathy piece I was talking about. And it does. As I come into a role, understanding the customers, whether it's through those same processes or something. Some different approach is always something you want to do.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. So to clarify, when you come into a support leadership role, you are getting to know customers by getting on calls yourself, it sounds like, but also kind of shadowing the sales team. Is that correct?

David Kohl: Yeah. I think the third one I mentioned is one, every opportunity you can to actually speak directly, you do. The second one I said was listen to what your teams are telling you, but yeah. I said get in and do the job, but it could be shadowing other teams. It could be shadowing your own team. We've got to be in the trenches hearing it directly rather than just relying on surveys.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. There's been a pattern I've noticed throughout the interviews I've been doing for this podcast with support leaders. It strikes me as being almost maybe a little different than other types of leadership like support leaders. They are still in there. In a different way, but they're still very deeply involved with customers even at the director or VP level.

David Kohl: Yeah. I say this often: support is a hard job, but it's an incredibly rewarding job because you do have that helper mindset. But go back to what I said, none of us as kids said, "I want to be a support rep when I grow up or I wanted to be a support director," but we have intrinsic things that bring us there. And as I said, you will never get as much customer exposure as you do. Think of the number of customers you speak to in any given and day or week. There's no place else you can do that.

Meredith Metsker: Yeah. I've heard from a few other leaders on this podcast that support is the number one place to start, especially if you want to work in tech, because of that. Not only the product understanding, but just understanding how to figure out what makes a customer tick.

David Kohl: Yeah. There are folks who come into a support role like we all lead and spend their whole career there, and I love those people because they're so skilled. But as support leaders, we can't be afraid of the fact that our folks, we may be a stepping stone for some people and we give them the skills and if they make a name for themselves, folks are going to want them. And that we should take pride in seeing our folks excel and promote and go into other roles.

One of the things I'll say they struck me right off the bat when I joined Shopify is the number of people I met from other organizations that told me they started as support advisors, and now they're in other roles.

Meredith Metsker: Interesting.

David Kohl: So that's something we should look for.

Meredith Metsker: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, like you said, anybody who works in support, especially if they've been there for a while, you know they're going to be deeply empathetic. They're likely going to be kind, going to be a good communicator. Those are great qualities in any role.

David Kohl: Yeah, for sure.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. I want to just back up a little bit because I thought of something else I wanted to dig into a little bit more. So you mentioned earlier that one of the things you consider and adjust based on the type of user is self-serve content and your self-serve offering. So I'm curious, can you tell me a little bit more about how you handled that with each of your user types and how you decide how much you want to invest in self-serve and then where you want to invest depending on your customer and their needs?

David Kohl: Yeah. I don't think there's ever a scenario where you're not going to invest in that because you describe your customer base, but that's never 100% coverage and there will always be benefit in having self-service, self-solve content. I mean, I'm always going to have a component of that. I think what you adjust is your expectations of the adoption. You're never after a zero. So if I go to a couple of the roles I've mentioned, if you have a mobile client, that can get in and upload a bunch of files and take pictures and stuff, you have to in your planning know that while it's there and may take off 10% of your support debt.

If you're trying to push for 50 and 50% of that doesn't match your client base, you're never going to be successful. So always looking for ways to reduce the work of our support teams. But I think understanding the customer base, it changes your expectations and it may focus what you do. It's like let's go back. Let's not put in long process docs to take them through a 15-step technical solution, but let's do give them self-service for upgrading their software or recovering their software ID or something like that. So you just have to be more focused and selective about what you target.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. I imagine that would, again, be quite different between like HP and then Shopify.

David Kohl: Yeah, absolutely.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. So to bring us back around and help us summarize, what advice would you give to other support leaders who want to understand their customers better and identify their needs and then adapt the service to fit their needs?

David Kohl: Yeah, I mean, I use the rocket science term, but it's not that. It's just as I've tried to give some examples of what I do, I think it's, one, just make it your mission to understand your customers better. And then I think it boils down to using that to just challenge some of the conventional wisdom of support norms like I've talked to. The KPI examples I gave.

They're still valid, but the things we measure are going to be common in everything. But the goals may not be. Maybe reducing times and increasing interaction counts isn't the right thing to meet the needs of your customer. Maybe you find that they're willing to wait a little bit longer in a chat or on the phone to get somebody who's knowledgeable and can solve on the first interaction.

Or maybe what is important is the tradition of, they want somebody to answer quickly because they're running around and then they're okay with somebody following up later. You can't come in and just say, this is what the textbook says and this is what I'm going to implement here. I think, as I mentioned that's the way you'll demotivate your team, if you're driving them with the wrong metrics. You can only do that if you understand the customer's needs and you got to interact with them to figure that out.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. So if you maybe don't use some of those more textbook metrics and KPIs, what's a good alternative?

David Kohl: Well, to clarify, I think you still use those, but you have to adjust the goals for them based on the customer. And you have to figure out what you're going to measure your team on. If I am doing a traditional contact center where we're just taking payment information or stuff, those make sense. We want you to do high volume and keep the calls short. But if I'm trying to build value, I'm not saying those things become unbounded, but if we have, in our mind, short calls are better, that may not be the case. You have to figure out what's the right sweet spot.

And maybe rather than measuring individuals, it becomes more of a coaching tool for individuals. That's where we have created this bad image of support culture is that we're using the KPIs and the metrics as a stick, to measure individuals as opposed to indicators to coach people.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. Yeah, I love that. I'm curious, what recommendations do you have for support leaders who would rather coach than the alternative, I guess?

David Kohl: What I'm saying is a hard thing, because if you're a frontline support leader, you may not have as much influence on that. I think I'll bring it back to more of a career type of thing. One of the things I've learned going through various organizations and various companies is the importance of aligning yourself with an organization that has the same support value as you do.

I think you start looking. You figure out what is your skill? What's your superpower. Maybe my superpower is running a call center type environment. Excellent. Those exist, need strong leaders, but that's what you can put yourself in. But if you're more, it's this idea of customer service versus technical support. We miss how different that can be. If you are more, which most of us are more on the technical side, do that, figure out who are the companies that... I know of one. Who are companies that really embrace that idea of the technical support, concern for the customer, concern for the people and align your decisions based on what you can find out about that rather than just, this is a level up and this pays me more money. Once you start chasing money, you're always going to chase the money.

Meredith Metsker: Gotcha. So now I have to ask, what's your superpower, David?

David Kohl: I think it's one of the things that has helped me in the varied roles is my background, my training in college is I'm a mathematician. So I have a very analytical mind. I am able to see through issues and help break them down and come up with creative solutions. So for my teams, I love to sit. I like to treat our relationship kind of like a think-tank. I love my leaders to come to me with the problems and we work through them together and break them down and figure out what can we do.

And that applies to how do we make a customer happy as well. Break down what's really the issue here and how can we solve it rather than this is the question, this is the answer.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And again, looking at your career path, I can see that play out. You enjoy new challenges and figuring out how to solve new problems in totally new environments for totally new industries.

David Kohl: Yep.

Meredith Metsker: That's cool. So to start wrapping us up a little bit, but before I ask you my final question, is there anything else about our topic today about understanding different customer types and figuring out how to adjust your service and how to motivate your team, is there anything else about that topic that you would like to add that we haven't covered yet?

David Kohl: No, I think I'll just go back to the point I made. Two points I made. I said, I think one of the things I learned with my little foray into other disciplines was to become more proactive and reactive because by nature we run... It's hard, we run full force. When we get a lull in support, we tend to take a break and we are very reactive. So it's that learning to be proactive. But it's just the idea that don't be afraid to engage directly with the customer.

When you were on the front lines and you knew the product inside and out, you weren't worried about a phone call from a customer. And just because you're removed from that, don't be either. As I said, treat them as blessings and opportunities to hear directly from your installed base.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. And then just to clarify a little bit of what you said, so when you say be proactive, what are some of those proactive things that support leaders should be doing?

David Kohl: Yeah. So proactive, good question, for the support leaders. I do, I think, have a list of things when the fires aren't burning, because there will be times when the fires are burning, what are things you can do during that time? Is it going off and reviewing customer feedback? Is it finding customers to call? Is it go and shadowing somebody in another discipline or shadowing your team? Is it stepping back and looking at some of those KPIs of how are we performing or do we have the goals set?

It's those type of things. It's hard to plan because of the reactive nature of our job. It's just have those things, kind of the, you have the things you have to do, have those things you're like, "I wish I had time for." Because you're going to get time. You'll have down times and just be deliberate about, "Oh, now I can do these type of things. Let's be proactive about it."

Meredith Metsker: Okay, perfect. So time for my final question. This is the big one, but in general, what advice do you have for up and coming support leaders?

David Kohl: Yeah, I think we've said some things throughout about look for opportunities to engage and take every phone call. Don't be afraid to take an escalation. I think I said this. It's relish those opportunities and challenge the norms. Okay. If I'm interviewing a support leader, I'm not necessarily wanting to know they can apply all the common knowledge I want to hear of when have you listened to a customer and adjusted your service. It is a question. If you ever interview for me, you will get this question. When have you taken feedback and adjusted your service based on that? So look for those opportunities to do that.

Meredith Metsker: That's a great interview question.

David Kohl: Good.

Meredith Metsker: I imagine you've gotten some good answers from that.

David Kohl: Yeah, I do.

Meredith Metsker: Okay. Well, very cool. I think that's all the questions I've got for you, David. Thank you so much again for taking the time to talk with me today.

David Kohl: Sure. I appreciate it. It's been great.

Meredith Metsker: All right. If anybody wants to learn more from you or maybe reach out to you, what's a good way for them to do that?

David Kohl: Yeah. I would just say connect with me on LinkedIn, and drop me a message there. It'd be the best way to do it.